ID Challenge No 5 (30-08-18//02-09-18) Complete

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ID Challenge No 5 (30-08-18//02-09-18) Complete

Post by Blackadder43 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:13 pm

This is an occasional series of threads designed to get an ID on an item, but with a difference. Here, you will have the opportunity to offer your opinion but you won't be influenced by other views as you won't be able to see them. The thread will be locked and you will have three days to submit your ID by using the ID Challenge form (link below). At the end of the allotted time the responses will be collated and put into a now re-opened thread for discussion.

The reason for the challenge format is to give everybody a chance to do their own research and come up with an idea without outside influence, the need to get in first, or indeed feeling that there's no need to offer an ID because someone else has already done it. Everyone is on an equal footing.

While we do of course learn from other people (and long may that continue) and the ID section will continue to run as normal,there's nothing like your own research to give a better, fuller understanding and this series should help us all with that.

So, we hope you'll enjoy the ID Challenge and that you get a lot out of it. You have three days to submit your ideas so no rush; take your time and if you change your mind then just submit another form.
==================== Start Thursday 30-08-18
Thread opens for discussion: after 5.00pm on Sunday 02-09-18

PLEASE NOTE that this coin has not been formally identified so there's no point in asking what the "answer" is at the end. The "answer" is whatever the concensus is and if you don't agree, then say so and discuss it ::g
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ID Challenge Answer from Allectus -

Post by Allectus » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:25 pm

Series E/variety G1 'Porcupine' Saxon Sceat.

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ID Challenge Answer from Junior -

Post by Junior » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:59 pm

Bit cunning there do it a small coin so my glass s don't really cope with it ....first of all is of said Celtic...but I think a Anglo Saxon vico type variety e 790c spinks ....but I didn't get a mag glass out 4- 2 it got to b .....cheers

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ID Challenge Answer from fred -

Post by fred » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:37 pm

Early Middle Ages (Saxon) - continental type 'Porcupine' Sceatta, possibly Frisian circa 690 - 740 AD.
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ID Challenge Answer from haveyoufound1yet -

Post by haveyoufound1yet » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:58 pm

Continental issue Sceatta c.695-c.740 Degenerate Head with four lines and central annulet. spink 790C

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ID Challenge Answer from amr321golf -

Post by Sir Upanotch » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:39 pm

Rhine area continental Sceatta - variety E Degenerated Head
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Post by Easylife » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:02 pm

Anglo-Saxon Sceat.
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ID Challenge Answer from Stillburning -

Post by Stillburning » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:57 pm

Series E porcupine sceat with 4 lines and central annulet
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ID Challenge Answer from SuperRed -

Post by Bradrick » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:07 pm

Sceat, Series E, variety E. Degenerate head / Standard with four lines and central annulet
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ID Challenge Answer from hd1958 -

Post by hd1958 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:18 am

celtic

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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-18//02-18)

Post by Blackadder43 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:33 pm

Thank you all who took part
Topic is now open to discussion
Cheers
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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-18//02-18) Complete

Post by Sir Upanotch » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:48 pm

I guess not much discussion needed then. But I counted at least 9 consignments of jelly beans to distribute ::g
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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-18//02-18) Complete

Post by Blackadder43 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:09 pm

amr321golf wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:48 pm
I guess not much discussion needed then. But I counted at least 9 consignments of jelly beans to distribute ::g
They are in the post ::g
I soo love opening parcels hehe
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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-18//02-18) Complete

Post by Sir Upanotch » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:15 pm

Hang on a minute....I smell a rat!..... you haven't got my address.......it's all lies people!!
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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-18//02-18) Complete

Post by Junior » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:06 pm

No discussion ....so am I right ???? Huhu :D ::g

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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-18//02-18) Complete

Post by thefiggis » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:38 pm

amr321golf wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:15 pm
Hang on a minute....I smell a rat!..... you haven't got my address.......it's all lies people!!
Not being one to say I told you so, but...
Junior wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:06 pm
No discussion ....so am I right ???? Huhu :D ::g
Spot on by the looks of it, chap ::g
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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-18//02-18) Complete

Post by Junior » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:15 pm

3-2 then ::g

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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-18//02-18) Complete

Post by thefiggis » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:54 pm

Send a parcel of the purple jelly beans and we'll make sure you equalise ::g

Mod edit:
Send too
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Historical note edit:

It's a little known fact that the Great Fire of London was started at the above address by the resident throwing a wobbler when a parcel contained only two of the white ones and he kicked the cat into the stove. Said cat promptly scrabbled up the chimbley and set fire to the roof. Jelly beans in the wrong hands are dangerous. Be careful who you send them to.
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Re: ID Challenge Answer from haveyoufound1yet -

Post by Dangerous Norman » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:29 pm

haveyoufound1yet wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:58 pm
Continental issue Sceatta c.695-c.740 Degenerate Head with four lines and central annulet. spink 790C
Not a challenge, more for explanation/confirmation.

1: Looking at my Spink I see the 790C and the reverse is almost identical with the exception that in the Spink the vertical lines are unbroken (2) and on the coin for ID they are broken (4). Is this an E variation (or E series variety D)? Spink appears to say the 4 lines is 'standard'

2: I take it the '740' is the date (circa) and if so how did you find that out. It's not shown in the Spink

3: I can see why it's classed as a porcupine series but what do they mean by a 'degenerate head'?

I would be grateful for any info you can offer.

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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-18//02-18)

Post by Easylife » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:36 pm

Blackadder43 wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:33 pm
Thank you all who took part
Topic is now open to discussion
Cheers
The Jelly bean Fiend
An interesting cryptic date format (30-18//02-18) in the title BA, are you adopting a new calendar system without months? x; :D
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Re: ID Challenge Answer from haveyoufound1yet -

Post by haveyoufound1yet » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:31 pm

Dangerous Norman wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:29 pm
haveyoufound1yet wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:58 pm
Continental issue Sceatta c.695-c.740 Degenerate Head with four lines and central annulet. spink 790C
Not a challenge, more for explanation/confirmation.

1: Looking at my Spink I see the 790C and the reverse is almost identical with the exception that in the Spink the vertical lines are unbroken (2) and on the coin for ID they are broken (4). Is this an E variation (or E series variety D)? Spink appears to say the 4 lines is 'standard'

2: I take it the '740' is the date (circa) and if so how did you find that out. It's not shown in the Spink

3: I can see why it's classed as a porcupine series but what do they mean by a 'degenerate head'?

I would be grateful for any info you can offer.
Hi there if you look with a eye glass the vertical lines are broken ( albeit just)
I could have just as easily described it as a porcupine sceatta which is the ''common'' term that most people use (Ref JJNorth) but rather described it by it's official name as described under the coin,Degenerate head is merely a statement of fact I believe.
If you go back one page in spink you will see the continental issues are referenced as being c.695-740.

hope that helps on how I got to my conclusions.
Last edited by haveyoufound1yet on Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-08-18//02-09-18) Complete

Post by Oxgirl36 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:38 pm

Here you go....

Anglo-Saxon, Continental Sceattas. Circa 700-765. AR Sceat (1.10 gm, 12mm). Series E, ‘Frankener’ phase, var. E (Type 4). Mint in Frisia (Dorestad). Obv.: ‘Porcupine’ right with triangular head; cross and symbols before. Rev.: Standard with central annulet, chevron and four bars around; symbols in margin. cf. Metcalf p. 197 and no. 214-5.

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Re: ID Challenge Answer from haveyoufound1yet -

Post by Dangerous Norman » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:51 pm

haveyoufound1yet wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:31 pm
Dangerous Norman wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:29 pm
haveyoufound1yet wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:58 pm
Continental issue Sceatta c.695-c.740 Degenerate Head with four lines and central annulet. spink 790C
Not a challenge, more for explanation/confirmation.

1: Looking at my Spink I see the 790C and the reverse is almost identical with the exception that in the Spink the vertical lines are unbroken (2) and on the coin for ID they are broken (4). Is this an E variation (or E series variety D)? Spink appears to say the 4 lines is 'standard'

2: I take it the '740' is the date (circa) and if so how did you find that out. It's not shown in the Spink

3: I can see why it's classed as a porcupine series but what do they mean by a 'degenerate head'?

I would be grateful for any info you can offer.
Hi there if you look with a eye glass the vertical lines are broken ( albeit just)
I could have just as easily described it as a porcupine sceatta which is the ''common'' term that most people use but rather described it by it's official name as described under the coin,Degenerate head is merely a statement of fact I believe.
If you go back one page in spink you will see the continental issues are referenced as being c.695-740.

hope that helps on how I got to my conclusions.
It does yes.

I did use a loupe but looking again I do see the break. As you say it's not as pronounced.
I had seen it described as porcupine in another post, Never thought of looking at an earlier page.
I googled Degenerated head but on repeating the search it came up with low quality as one of the meanings. That didn't show last time.

Thank you for you help.

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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-08-18//02-09-18) Complete

Post by Blackadder43 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:58 pm

And that folks is what we like about these challenges, it promotes debate, questions and of course answers from people who are willing to share
Well done all, great stuff
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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-08-18//02-09-18) Complete

Post by Dangerous Norman » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:36 pm

I also should have asked, is there something in the design on the coin that suggest it's typical of a saxon coin? Spink has thousands of coins and I wouldn't have a clue where to start.

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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-08-18//02-09-18) Complete

Post by Allectus » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:02 am

It's Series E type G - see S790G. ::g


A ;)

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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-08-18//02-09-18) Complete

Post by Allectus » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:04 am

Dangerous Norman wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:36 pm
I also should have asked, is there something in the design on the coin that suggest it's typical of a saxon coin? Spink has thousands of coins and I wouldn't have a clue where to start.
The '’porcupine’ is unmistakably Saxon. ::g

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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-08-18//02-09-18) Complete

Post by haveyoufound1yet » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:27 am

Dangerous Norman wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:36 pm
I also should have asked, is there something in the design on the coin that suggest it's typical of a saxon coin? Spink has thousands of coins and I wouldn't have a clue where to start.
Saxon sceatta's are quite easy to spot because of there size & thickness compared to the hammered Saxon coins which followed on after them.(Spink try to give pics to scale)
you will have to do some/alot of study over a period of time in order to become familiar with the types of coins from differen't periods matey. Spink is useful but far from Exhaustive and although we have the internet & there are plenty of Reference works out there such as JJNorth Vol I & II etc, Banging your head against the ''Numismatic wall of pain is the only way to go I'm afraid! :D
(Also there is the ''Living encyclopedia'' of coins Mr ''A'' himself to fall back on:-)

All the best on your endeavors Rich. ::g
Last edited by haveyoufound1yet on Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-08-18//02-09-18) Complete

Post by Bradrick » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:28 am

Allectus wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:02 am
It's Series E type G - see S790G. ::g


A ;)
A quick question if you don't mind matey: I had Series E Variety E - what is it that makes it Series G? I've been looking, but having trouble seeing the difference.

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Re: ID Challenge No 5 (30-08-18//02-09-18) Complete

Post by Allectus » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:36 am

SuperRed wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:28 am
Allectus wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:02 am
It's Series E type G - see S790G. ::g


A ;)
A quick question if you don't mind matey: I had Series E Variety E - what is it that makes it Series G? I've been looking, but having trouble seeing the difference.

Cheers
Brad
E/E Has a lot more pellets around the 'nose' & & on the reverse. I'll sort some pics out later. ::g

A ;)

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