How to miss targets with iron bias.

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How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by Ten pence! »

Did some testing today, there will be no Youtube style dangling the coil directly over the target and me making amazing claims, no, the idea is to mimic the sort of conditions you will encounter in the (very muddy!) field.

The targets are a bent and rusted iron nail and a bit of scrap silver about the size of a cut half, the targets were buried at two inches and then moved apart to test the response of the machine to altered settings, the silver reads 9 and the bent nail -2 to -3. This is an intentionally tough test as the silver is much smaller than the nail, the coil was swung at my normal speed of about 5ft in 2 seconds, first over the nail and then over the coin/silver.

You can see my settings in the picture below, with these settings I'd not hear the nail, running in all metal you would hear it. But not much point in hearing all the iron on this rather contaminated site.


So to the test results, noise cancel and ground balance set at the default zero, with the nail over the coin and with an iron bias of zero on my 600, zilch! In fact the coin needed to be four inches away before I got a even slight blip, but nothing that would bring you back, at five inches I got a
decent signal, I then upped the iron bias to 1, the coin had to be moved to seven inches to get a signal, 2 (4 on the 800) about 9 inches and 3 (6) the virtual width of the coil, 11 inches. I also had a bit of a play around with recovery speed and obviously a faster recover speed means better target separation, as long as you do not go to fast of course..
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Last edited by Ten pence! on Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by ratty »

Don't want to pee on your crisps ...but... i think the electrical properties of the targets will vary in contact the soil ,in a bag it will be different. :)

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by Ten pence! »

ratty wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:21 pm
Don't want to pee on your crisps ...but... i think the electrical properties of the targets will vary in contact the soil ,in a bag it will be different. :)
Makes no difference whatsoever.......

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by Ten pence! »

The results are better because the coin in that vid is much, much bigger and not buried! :D

I intentionally used a tiny coin and a big (in comparison) nail to make the test difficult, on that soil the silver fragment will vanish at five inches, switching to all metal will not turn it into a positive signal either, after much experimentation these were the best compromise settings, on less hot ground, ie less iron, I prefer F2 as it is slightly deeper on small hammered.

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by BlackBridgeBoy »

Again, I don't want to pee on your bonfire.... but there are hundreds of such tests on Yo**ube.

It will depend on the Detector (and it's settings), the Land (wet/dry/salinity), the orientation of the item that you are reading, the historical change in the item's chemistry (copper sat next to iron, or in heavily fertilised soil, as examples) etc etc etc

Certainly a newly buried item in a plastic bag would not give the same reading as a similar item (unbagged) that had been buried for a few hundred years. Nor would that mean that the relative Recovery Speed of the Detector, and 'Detection' of the item, be exactly the same.

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by BlackBridgeBoy »

Bagging an item excludes the contact material, therefore the test can have no real relevance.
Furthermore, an item in 'Undisturbed' soil can give a very different reading to an item in 'Disturbed' soil.
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Last edited by BlackBridgeBoy on Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by Junior »

Normally get stuff applauding the rec speed of a detectector...I like it... I've never tried the nail test where they do a liberal sprinkling of nails around it .... ive got a test bed and i know what i get on that with various detectors ive had... are the hu tube vids a set u ? ...thanks for the time spend on experiment ...surprising from the nox ::g

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by fred »

BlackBridgeBoy wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:46 pm
Again, I don't want to pee on your bonfire.... but there are hundreds of such tests on Yo**ube.

It will depend on the Detector (and it's settings), the Land (wet/dry/salinity), the orientation of the item that you are reading, the historical change in the item's chemistry (copper sat next to iron, or in heavily fertilised soil, as examples) etc etc etc

Certainly a newly buried item in a plastic bag would not give the same reading as a similar item (unbagged) that had been buried for a few hundred years. Nor would that mean that the relative Recovery Speed of the Detector, and 'Detection' of the item, be exactly the same.

BBB.


I was just writing more or less the same thing, there are simply too many variable to be able to absolutely quantify responses. In some cases the difference between getting a digger and missing it completely can be a matter of a few degress in the direction of approach. I have certainly had some very nice finds much closer to iron. This was one of the first when I was still using my original beginners settings:

viewtopic.php?f=291&t=100667&p=895036#p895036

Sorting out the less obvious signals on the Nox is not always straightforward. As somebody on here once said, the art is being able to tell the difference between an iron signal with good and good signal with iron. ::g
Last edited by fred on Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by BlackBridgeBoy »

Probably just goes back to the old saying - "If in doubt, DIG!".
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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by Ten pence! »

BlackBridgeBoy wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:46 pm
Again, I don't want to pee on your bonfire.... but there are hundreds of such tests on Yo**ube.

It will depend on the Detector (and it's settings), the Land (wet/dry/salinity), the orientation of the item that you are reading, the historical change in the item's chemistry (copper sat next to iron, or in heavily fertilised soil, as examples) etc etc etc

Certainly a newly buried item in a plastic bag would not give the same reading as a similar item (unbagged) that had been buried for a few hundred years. Nor would that mean that the relative Recovery Speed of the Detector, and 'Detection' of the item, be exactly the same.

BBB.
Some folks seem to be struggling here! :D

Yes of course different set ups will give different results, we all know that! The point I am trying to get across is if you up iron bias you start to mask good targets located in iron infested ground! The so called "halo effect" is also a myth, except on rusted iron of course where the target grows. The next time you dig a coin up that has left a green stain in the soil remove the coin and wave the green dirt over the coil, I can guarantee you will not get any signal, and in my tests a bagged coin gives identical numbers to an unbagged coin, do not just take my word for bury a bagged and unbagged coin and see for yourself! ::g

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by BlackBridgeBoy »

Ten pence! wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:08 pm
BlackBridgeBoy wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:46 pm
Again, I don't want to pee on your bonfire.... but there are hundreds of such tests on Yo**ube.

It will depend on the Detector (and it's settings), the Land (wet/dry/salinity), the orientation of the item that you are reading, the historical change in the item's chemistry (copper sat next to iron, or in heavily fertilised soil, as examples) etc etc etc

Certainly a newly buried item in a plastic bag would not give the same reading as a similar item (unbagged) that had been buried for a few hundred years. Nor would that mean that the relative Recovery Speed of the Detector, and 'Detection' of the item, be exactly the same.

BBB.
Some folks seem to be struggling here! :D

Yes of course different set ups will give different results, we all know that! The point I am trying to get across is if you up iron bias you start to mask good targets located in iron infested ground! The so called "halo effect" is also a myth, except on rusted iron of course where the target grows. The next time you dig a coin up that has left a green stain in the soil remove the coin and wave the green dirt over the coil, I can guarantee you will not get any signal, and in my tests a bagged coin gives identical numbers to an unbagged coin, do not just take my word for bury a bagged and unbagged coin and see for yourself! ::g

I'm afraid that you're missing the point.
You CANNOT compare a test carried out where the items are in contact with the soil, and have been so for some (maybe hundreds of) years, to sticking an item in a bag and burying it!
Oh, and I found a Henry III Groat six inches underneath a large Iron Nail, and my Detector indicated that it was there.
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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by Ten pence! »

I'm sorry that proves nothing as as it is entirely anecdotal! And again the halo effect does not exist.

You have to test in controlled conditions to get reliable data, I've often seen "killer" settings at rallies that when put to the test are very poor, the users then have a fiddle around or make excuses, not being funny but getting a good find proves zilch, some of my best finds could have been found with a pinpointer on the end of a stick! :D

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by BlackBridgeBoy »

Sorry, let me just say that I'm not trying to belittle or decry your tests....
It's just that there are so many variables when using any form of Discrimination/Bias on any Detector, or performing any tests to prove Settings.
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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by Ten pence! »

Why not do your own tests? Most people overestimate the capabilities of their machine, I'm the exact opposite, by doing quantifiable tests you will learn far more than just guessing or saying I found this so the machine must be set up right.
By doing various tests that mimic as close as possible field conditions you learn a lot more very quickly, you can then use this information to set the machine up in a way that will be to your advantage.

I'll repeat the bottom line again, if you whack up iron bias in iron laden soil you will mask some targets, smaller ones especially, in other words using IB is not the best way to mitigate iron, notching is more effective as it is specific and learning the tones/signals is even better!

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by nalag46 »

I'm afraid that you're missing the point.
You CANNOT compare a test carried out where the items are in contact with the soil, and have been so for some (maybe hundreds of) years, to sticking an item in a bag and burying it!
Oh, and I found a Henry III Groat six inches underneath a large Iron Nail, and my Detector indicated that it was there.
BBB.

A Henry III Groat???? Have we discovered a new issue for this King/period?

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by Doyoudigitman »

I agree with everything you are saying ten pence regarding keeping a lower iron bias. If you keep it too high you will definitely miss small stuff close to iron.
Also the key is to learn the sounds of the machine!!!
Just to add I only found the halo effect exists with rusty iron! ::g

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by BlackBridgeBoy »

nalag46 wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:15 pm
I'm afraid that you're missing the point.
You CANNOT compare a test carried out where the items are in contact with the soil, and have been so for some (maybe hundreds of) years, to sticking an item in a bag and burying it!
Oh, and I found a Henry III Groat six inches underneath a large Iron Nail, and my Detector indicated that it was there.
BBB.

A Henry III Groat???? Have we discovered a new issue for this King/period?
No. sadly not....
'My Bad' (as my Kids would say) it was in fact Henry VI (senior moments do apply now and then).
Not Anecdotal, and recorded here at the time (and viewed by others as I dug it) viewtopic.php?f=120&t=96603
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Last edited by BlackBridgeBoy on Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by BlackBridgeBoy »

Doyoudigitman wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:38 pm
I agree with everything you are saying ten pence regarding keeping a lower iron bias. If you keep it too high you will definitely miss small stuff close to iron.
Also the key is to learn the sounds of the machine!!!
Just to add I only found the halo effect exists with rusty iron! ::g
... and I don't disagree with him.
But you can't compare the tests with the real thing - that's all I (and others) have said....
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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by nordic »

It is worth mentioning the firmware version you are running when carrying out tests, they perform different...

Also a 6" coil will see a coin inside a horse shoe (if one wants that kind of separation), but 11" will not with any iron bias setting or recovery speed.

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by PinkFloyd »

Wow, I’m going to have to test that

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by littleboot »

A perfectly reasonable sensible test from TP. Any points about 'halo' effects being real or not are surely moot as regards this test and what it is setting out to illustrate. The test is devised to show that if you increase Iron bias on those pesky iron-infested areas (where many good finds also tend to hang out in my experience) you run a much greater risk of missing goodies.
Most of my best sites are iron-infested. I keep the iron bias at 0 (or 1 in exceptional circumstances) and pin back my lugholes for any little blips that i can go back over from another angle....slowly slowly slowly. Lots of patience. Letting a machine ...however good it is...take too much editing control is a very bad move IMO.
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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by Ten pence! »

Cheers LB! ::g

At least someone got what I was driving at! Next week I will be doing, how does the Equinox perform in saturated ground? the "wet"(virtually underwater in fact!) test results were logged today and hopefully the land will dry out by next week and the dry (er) tests can be conducted, I sort of know the results already but I need to verify them!

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by Ten pence! »

Anyone can read the tons of technical info Minelab has put out, some of us do and use the information to make informed decisions in the field! And as we all know tech does not stand still! ::g

Old Minelabs were notoriously slow in terms of response and often poor in iron, which is why many of us gave up on them when the T2/F75/GMP came out in the early noughties, the late, great detecting legend Norfolk Wolf has a series of tests still up on Youtube that amply demonstrate the rather slow recover speed of a pair of certain older Minelabs. However Minelab clearly listened to customers and probably looked at the diminishing bottom line as well.

The end result is a very un Minelab like detector, it is not built like a tank and you can forget most of what you learned with the older machines, it is not rammed with incomprehensible programmes or pointless gimmicks, it has copied the competition and and has a very fast processor and can be adopted and used by non Minelab fans, hence the good iron ground performance and fast recovery speed, nigh on essential these days, they have done all of this and still managed to retain the good things about multi frequency.

All in all a great machine that can be adapted to more modern ways of detecting, it can be made to fit you, and not the other way around!

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by Blackadder43 »

Ok this thread is about tests carried out on a nox
Please keep it on topic about the nox tests
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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by Billy Doyle »

littleboot wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:51 pm
I keep the iron bias at 0
Same ::g

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Re: How to miss targets with iron bias.

Post by PinkFloyd »

I’m not ready for zero bios yet :))
Even at 1 I swear a lot =))

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