Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

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Re: Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

Post by sweepstick47 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:27 pm

That's a great 'state of play' to be in Jungle! I look forward to the final outcome ::g Regards ss47
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Re: Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

Post by roadwarriormax » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:51 pm

nice find :) well done ::g OooO
roman coins=79
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rings=5
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denarius=7
silver coins=87
you lucky,lucky :)

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Re: Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

Post by Jungle » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:00 pm

2nd day in court and coroner found in my favour, not treasure.
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Re: Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

Post by fred » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:01 pm

Jungle wrote:2nd day in court and coroner found in my favour, not treasure.
Very surprised at that. I look forward to finding out why the coroner decided the way. Provided that there isn't an appeal (not sure if that is even possible?) then you may have done all detectorists a favour although again I am not sure if a Coroners verdict sets any kind of precedent. ::g

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Re: Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

Post by Jungle » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:46 am

I presented several arguments and still had some in reserve. The next treasure case involving a pierced coin was also disclaimed 'to be consistent ' however I suspect the BM and FLO's will offer better or different evidence and or push for change in Act so that it includes single Gold and silver coins.
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Re: Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

Post by fred » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:23 am

Jungle wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:46 am
I presented several arguments and still had some in reserve. The next treasure case involving a pierced coin was also disclaimed 'to be consistent ' however I suspect the BM and FLO's will offer better or different evidence and or push for change in Act so that it includes single Gold and silver coins.
From informal conversation with several of those involved in the process about other coins I'm not sure that they even want to be able to claim single coins, not that they wouldn't appreciate getting hold of single rarities either. :D The extra workload and expense would be phenomenal and there aren't likely to be any more resources made available for handling them.

In my opinion this case seems to be revolving around whether coin which has been altered for use as something other than money is still a coin. Because the value of a coin in those days was mostly based on it's bullion value I personally think that even with a small hole it probably would have been spendable. After all we often find them with gouges and testing cuts. Once you start welding bits on or fitting them into jewelry it might be a bit different. Of course if you could prove that the coin was drilled by a Saxon for wearing at a time when the coin couldn't be spent you might also run into a problem but you can seldom be sure when it was done. ::g

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Re: Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

Post by jcmaloney » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:57 am

Jungle wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:46 am
I presented several arguments and still had some in reserve. The next treasure case involving a pierced coin was also disclaimed 'to be consistent ' however I suspect the BM and FLO's will offer better or different evidence and or push for change in Act so that it includes single Gold and silver coins.
Ah ha! All makes sense now........ saw the FB post etc! ::g

I think there will be a push for single Gold Roman/Anglo Saxon to be classified as Treasure especially now there is a "pierced coin test case" found as "not treasure" by a coroner.
I may quote this when mine eventually gets to inquest. ;)

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Re: Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

Post by f8met » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:19 pm

My pierced silver was classed as treasure and is at the museum who expressed an interest after we donated it. It is highly likely it would not have been in circulation as they would not have pierced a current coin, more likely it would have been found and then made into decoration. I am very surprised it was not considered an artifact as it had clearly been deliberately pierced.

Goes to show that without a central coroner there will always be inconsistencies. The coroners job is usually just a paperwork exercise and the report from the FLO/BM should have given him guidance to the decision.

Interesting you say it was disclaimed. Was this because there was no interest from museums or that he had decided it was not treasure? Why is there a push for these not to be classed as treasure?
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Re: Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

Post by Jungle » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:04 pm

BM wanted it but did not convince the corner. My issue was that looking on PAS many single pierced coins were 'returned to finder' but my rare coin which the BM does not have was now not a coin. Had there been two holes or a suspension loop then clearly it would have been treasure. That said, when I get it back it will be offered to BM first.

Some single pierced roman coins have been found threaded on to Roman brooch pins for safe keeping, and the Chinese use holes in coins to keep them safe.
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Re: Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

Post by fred » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:52 am

Jungle wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:04 pm
BM wanted it but did not convince the corner. My issue was that looking on PAS many single pierced coins were 'returned to finder' but my rare coin which the BM does not have was now not a coin. Had there been two holes or a suspension loop then clearly it would have been treasure. That said, when I get it back it will be offered to BM first.

Some single pierced roman coins have been found threaded on to Roman brooch pins for safe keeping, and the Chinese use holes in coins to keep them safe.
Well argued. ::g

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Re: Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

Post by f8met » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:40 pm

Chinese coins were made with holes in so as an argument it would not be apple for apples. Also it would be hard to prove coins on a pin were made in Roman times to keep coins for safe keeping unless found in context. A single hole would still be sufficient to put it on a necklace.

The article on the PAS site for pierced coins is quite wooly and it implies that it is the discretion of the BM whether they should be considered as treasure.

Just curious as to why the coroner, who would not have an expert knowledge of items, would deem it to go against expert knowledge from the BM?
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Re: Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

Post by Allectus » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:32 pm

"That said, when I get it back it will be offered to BM first."

I'm interested in that one Jungle, if it's for sale? ::g

Cheers

A ;)

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Re: Roman silver. Carausius AR denarius, London

Post by Jungle » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:04 pm

f8met wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:40 pm
Chinese coins were made with holes in so as an argument it would not be apple for apples. Also it would be hard to prove coins on a pin were made in Roman times to keep coins for safe keeping unless found in context. A single hole would still be sufficient to put it on a necklace.

The article on the PAS site for pierced coins is quite wooly and it implies that it is the discretion of the BM whether they should be considered as treasure.

Just curious as to why the coroner, who would not have an expert knowledge of items, would deem it to go against expert knowledge from the BM?
Thanks for your input.

Re: Chinese, although it proves holes can be used to keep coins together.
And it would be difficult to prove if a hole in a coin was made more than 300 years ago unless found in context.
The BM argument was that pierced coins have been found in Saxon graves . This was found in topsoil.

The woolly guidance does not help finders/landowners.

I would say a independent, non expert is ideally suited to apply the law.

There is certainly inconsistency in claiming pierced coins but if its the coins rarity that determines whether its claimed, then I would expect "single coins" to come in to play.
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