ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

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ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by The Fenman » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:28 pm

Can anyone help with an ID for this silver button please. Found on arable land in North Cambridgeshire at a depth of appox 5 inches. "The button is conical in shape and is 17mm diameter
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Last edited by The Fenman on Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: ID for silver button please

Post by Wigeon » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:54 pm

When this first came up, we thought that the symbol at the bottom of the front, looked like a fleur de lys, which it clearly isn't.

Not far from Norman Cross so we were hoping for a Napoleonic officer's button. =P~
We thought we could make out part of Inniskillen and on the other side London but enventually accepted that it was a case of 'seeing Elvis in the tea-leaves' 8-|
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Re: ID for silver button please

Post by stupot » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:07 pm

27th Eniskillen Regt. Prince of Wales feathers, silver Officers button. A specialist would help but my guess would be c.1790-1820.

The regiment was raised as local militia at Enniskillen by Colonel Zachariah Tiffin as Zacharaiah Tiffin's Regiment of Foot in June 1689.In 1751, the regiment was formally titled the 27th (Enniskillen) Regiment of Foot. Looks like a 7 in centre on right side.

I think its cracker chum..

ps spelling can be Inniskilling

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Re: ID for silver button please

Post by Oxgirl36 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:49 pm

I like that - a lot ::g
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Re: ID for silver button please

Post by Wigeon » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:08 pm

stupot wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:07 pm
27th Eniskillen Regt. Prince of Wales feathers, silver Officers button. A specialist would help but my guess would be c.1790-1820.

The regiment was raised as local militia at Enniskillen by Colonel Zachariah Tiffin as Zacharaiah Tiffin's Regiment of Foot in June 1689.In 1751, the regiment was formally titled the 27th (Enniskillen) Regiment of Foot. Looks like a 7 in centre on right side.

I think its cracker chum..

ps spelling can be Inniskilling
Hi stupot, do you have an image to show us please ? The Fenman and I have been trying to find one without success.
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Re: ID for silver button please

Post by stupot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:22 am

sorry no image, just working off yours!

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Re: ID for silver button please

Post by Wigeon » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:32 pm

This is really making us scratch our heads ! :-/
There is so much lettering around the edge but it just wont come to us what it is for sure.
Stupot may well be right of course.

This morning we asked my wife to photograph it from all aspects, so different camera, different lighting and different views. Not easy to photograph as its both shiny and conical. Definitely silver.

We think that we have a second much smaller, pistol and musket range, perhaps used by officers associated with Norman Cross and this item could be an important indicator.

Those who enjoy a challenge, please give it a go. ::g
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Re: ID for silver button please

Post by littleboot » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:31 pm

Certainly looks like an 18th century 'blow-hole' type button so that fits the date given. Certainly seems to say Eniskillen. At this time of course most spelling wasn't standardized.
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Re: ID for silver button please

Post by Wigeon » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:49 am

littleboot wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:31 pm
Certainly looks like an 18th century 'blow-hole' type button so that fits the date given. Certainly seems to say Eniskillen. At this time of course most spelling wasn't standardized.
Thank you for confirming the type/date ::g . The Fenman and I thought that we could see 'LONDON' between 2 and 5 O'clock but the more we look at it, not so sure :-/ .
Never had a button with so much lettering, albeit very worn, but so difficult to positively ID.
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Re: ID for silver button please

Post by Wigeon » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:56 am

After further work on the full size images this morning, I now think that the wording on the right hand edge between 1 and 5 O'clock may be 'MAKER LONDON'.
Clockwise from the symbol at 6 O'clock I have got S or J, N S & INN_S_IN__MAKER LONDON.
Looks like the whole lettering may be the maker ??
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by Wigeon » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:19 am

Had a good play with the full sized images. Perhaps the best hope for a positive ID is the symbol at the bottom edge of the button ?
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by littleboot » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:32 pm

I think it looks like the top of a flaming grenade.
I think its too early for 'Napoleonic'..probably by 50 odd years. But I have had areas here in France where I have found mainly Napoleonic War buttons but a few earlier silver ones in the mix. I strongly suspect the silver ones were constantly re-used and recycled.
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by Wigeon » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:24 pm

littleboot wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:32 pm
I think it looks like the top of a flaming grenade.
I think its too early for 'Napoleonic'..probably by 50 odd years. But I have had areas here in France where I have found mainly Napoleonic War buttons but a few earlier silver ones in the mix. I strongly suspect the silver ones were constantly re-used and recycled.
Thanks LB. I too think it may be a flaming grenade ::g . I hadnt suggested it, as I didnt want to scew the views nor get our hopes up.

We have clear historical evidence of Republican war prisoners here at Norman Cross from when it opened in 1797 and UK regiments both militia and regular were here from then. We have several buttons from other nearby sites, with the Liberty Bonnet too.

If we can positively decypher the lettering, I think we can confidently say that it is indeed an officer's button.
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by fred » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:44 pm

To my mind they are definitely Prince of Wales feathers and the ribbon below it tends to confirm it. It looks Naploeonic War period to me.
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by Wigeon » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:29 pm

fred wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:44 pm
To my mind they are definitely Prince of Wales feathers and the ribbon below it tends to confirm it. It looks Naploeonic War period to me.
Thanks Fred ::g . Have you got an image of Prince of Wales Feathers, which look like this, that you could post as an example please ?
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by alloverover » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:44 pm

If its a button it looks like it would of had a square shank which is a bit strange ? ::g

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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by fred » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:43 pm

Wigeon wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:29 pm
fred wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:44 pm
To my mind they are definitely Prince of Wales feathers and the ribbon below it tends to confirm it. It looks Naploeonic War period to me.
Thanks Fred ::g . Have you got an image of Prince of Wales Feathers, which look like this, that you could post as an example please ?
Not specifically but it's absolutely standard, just a tad worn so it's lost all the detail. The ends of the feathers are turned over towards you. There are numerous similar ones in the British Military Buttons database. :D Also I wasn't aware that flaming grenades were used with just the flame anyway?

Having said all that I am not really sure what it is. There are no blowholes so it's probably not early 18thC. The PoW feathers are at the bottom with seemingly a large blank space above, which would be unusual for a military or Militia button. The feathers did appeared on the makers marks of several button manufacturers, e.g. Charles Jennens, London, but they are generally post Napoleonic and not silver. Also the makers marksare usually on the back, presumably where the shank was fitted, not on the face.
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by Wigeon » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:24 am

Thanks again Fred ::g .
It is indeed very worn. I couldn't relate the usual image of POW feathers to the impression on the item, which like LB, made me think it was flames.

This is one of those finds that we are so keen to ID owing to its potential significance for unravelling the history of this site.

I have added a much clearer photo of the back (one taken by my wife), which may help.
I am now starting to doubt whether it is a button at all ? As Alloverrover commented the square shaped 'shank' would be rather unusual.
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by littleboot » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:35 am

That is a much clearer image and I have to say that what I thought was a blowhole, isn't. (Sometimes blowholes are filled with crud ).
In the square bit, the middle of it, is that a circular place where one located? Can just see the top segment and there looks like some solder over the rest. It's quite a crude job where the square piece seems to have been forced in...so that could indicated the silver button/whatever has been re-purposed?
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by Wigeon » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:48 am

littleboot wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:35 am
That is a much clearer image and I have to say that what I thought was a blowhole, isn't. (Sometimes blowholes are filled with crud ).
In the square bit, the middle of it, is that a circular place where one located? Can just see the top segment and there looks like some solder over the rest. It's quite a crude job where the square piece seems to have been forced in...so that could indicated the silver button/whatever has been re-purposed?
Thanks again LB. ::g These images are the best I can do within the size constraints of this site.
Shows the close-up of the back fairly clearly but the other side image is getting rather grainy.
Definitely solder on the back. Perhaps blowhole(s) have been filled in with silver ? I have never seen a blowhole button though.
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by The Fenman » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:03 am

Thanks for all the effort everyone, I've spent this morning searching online for anything I thought might give us a clue but have drawn a blank. The plot thickens :(
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by fred » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:32 pm

It could still be a button. The square 'shank' looks like an area which has simply been filed to allow silver solder to stick to it so it might not be directly related to the shape of whatever was attached. :D

If possible would you post a 'side on view' of it please. ::g
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by The Fenman » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:14 pm

Hi Fred, Apologies for the quality of this photo but it's the best I could get.
The distance from the bottom of the button to the top of the dome is 5mm
Hope this helps
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by Lowland » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:01 pm

Certainly a head scratcher,could the writing to the front be a manufacturer ,
rather than a military outfit?
Like a sample perhaps.
Can definately I think :D see London as the last word.
Cheers ::g
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by f8met » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:05 pm

Could it be the top of a swagger stick? That may explain the makers mark on the dome section with the square section going in to the top of the cane?
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by Wigeon » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:20 am

Lowland wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:01 pm
Certainly a head scratcher,could the writing to the front be a manufacturer ,
rather than a military outfit?
Like a sample perhaps.
Can definately I think :D see London as the last word.
Cheers ::g
Thanks Lowland. I am as sure as I can be that the letters from 1 o'clock to 5 o'clock read 'MAKER LONDON.'

Its now a case of trying to decypher the name from 7 o'clock to 12 o'clock. I think it is two or three letters followed by the '&' symbol then more letters of another name. However I havent got there yet.
If we can get the maker's name our silver experts would no doubt confirm the period.
Hope burns eternal :D ::g .
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Re: ID for silver button - Napoleonic Military? new photos added 14.7.19

Post by fred » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:55 am

It is starting to look more and more like an upmarket makers stud of some sort. That would certainly explain the square shank and the wording. The PoW feathers would imply that they provided stuff for the Prince of Wales which might narrow the range a bit. :D
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